Saturday, May 20, 2006

Brian McBlurren, Bologna Campolo, Slick Warren

When leaders such as Brian McBlurr-en (McLaren) or Rob-Nooma-Yoga-Breathe in the Spirit Bell, or Bologna (Tony) Campolo, or Richard (call me a mystic) Foster, or Slick Warren or Robert Fool-Yer (Schuller) or whomever, STRAYS from the essential doctrines of:

-the deity of Christ
-the sacrificial blood atonement
-the virgin birth
-the Trinity
-doctrine of exclusive salvation
-from the infallible scripture alone
-through Jesus alone
-through faith alone
-by grace alone
-in Christ alone
-to the glory of God alone
-the resurrection
-the reality of hell

or any other essential doctrine, you should pray from them and flee from them, their churches, their books, and their preaching as fast as you can. Wherever and whenever this occurs, that teacher has shown himself to be one who is a FALSE TEACHER and has no business teaching the Holy Scriptures. This teacher has then poisoned the Truth of God.

Test all things (pertaining to the faith), hold on to the good (doctrinally sound) and flee from all forms of evil (ALL teachings or methods that do not pass the test of scripture). 1 Thess. 5:21, 22.

Like Ian Paisley says, you should: "STAND UP, SHOUT OUT, GET OUT, STAY OUT!"

-KCO

15 Comments:

Blogger Phil Perkins said...

Great, great, great, great blog. Will add you to my links.

Phil Perkins

2:42 PM  
Blogger Christopher said...

"Test all things (pertaining to the faith), hold on to the good (doctrinally sound) and flee from all forms of evil (ALL teachings or methods that do not pass the test of scripture). 1 Thess. 5:21, 22."

Its funny that Rob Bell actually says a lot of those things in his book, Velvet Elvis. He actually tells people to test what he says, because he even says that he may not be right, hes just contributing to the conversation. What I appreciate about Rob Bell is that he has the childlike mentality that Jesus told us we as adults should have. Its the humbleness and hunger to learn God's word, and to be filled with the Holy Spirit that makes his mentality childlike.

I noticed that you sort of attacked these people's character by making fun of their names as well.

Why did you do that?

5:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

why the name calling? have we stooped that low to be immature and call those people, who by the way are created by God, loved by God just like you and me, names? I am disappointed. Please could the level of maturity rise a little?

12:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just having a little fun with the names while trying to make a point. No personal harm intended. The names are take-offs from the things they teach, not about them as individuals. I don't know them personally.

By the way Christopher and Anon., (just out of curiosity) are you more bothered by the puns with the names or by the falsehood these teachers are presenting?

-KCO

3:23 PM  
Blogger Christopher said...

Again, I see no falsehood when these people are humble enough to say they are just contributing to the conversation, rather than making bold claims. When a person tells me to test and question what they say or do according to the scripture, it makes a lot more sense than someone making bold claims about them being false teachers.

Remember the Pharisees, that is what they did to Jesus, because His teachings and actions didn't follow the strict rules of what they followed (even though the meaning of the rituals they performed had been lost) Remember what Jesus said about the people said about rejecting the Holy Spirit. Make sure your own pride doesn't get in the way of that. Make sure you don't become a Pharisee, and I will do the same.

I know that we both love God. And I am only telling you this because, even though we may not agree, I still tell it to you out of love, not out of pride.

4:05 PM  
Blogger Kennyo said...

Christopher,

What is so admirable about uncertainty? This is something I simply do not understand. There are some things within our faith that you had better be certain of otherwise the faith is false. The authors and teachers mentioned here waffle on the fundamentials of christian faith, therefore showing themselves to be false teachers. This is too serious to take lightly.

4:25 PM  
Blogger Christopher said...

I see no uncertainty with these people's teachings. They are certain, but Im sure if a person came to them and showed them how, where and what they were wrong about intelligently, and scripturally, they would admit they were wrong as well. That is humbleness. That is is admirable.

1:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Christopher,

Our concern is you and people like you with whom we have contact. Those close to these leaders are responsible to point out errors in their teachings. They have their ear. We don't. We have your ear. And for that we are grateful.

The question at hand is; Do YOU believe and agree with the many errors these leaders are promoting? For example:

Do you believe a person can be a christian and still practice homosexuality? Tony Campolo and Brian McLaren do. Do you believe a christian should practice Yoga? Rob Bell does. Do you believe in contemplative prayer, which is nowhere practiced in scripture, as practiced by people who have historically denied the diety of Christ and have been involved in forms of transcendental meditation and astral projection? Richard Foster and Dallas Willard do. Do you believe that a Christ rejecting Muslim can go to heaven simply by feeding the poor and helping others, therein feeding and helping Christ? Tony Campolo and Shane Claiborne do. Do you believe that the Great Commission shares an equal status of importance with feeding the poor and educating a village? Rick Warren does. Do you believe that the Throne of Heaven where Christ will be exalted forever as the Lamb of God and the Alpha and Omega and the King of kings as described in the book of Revelation was not an original design thought up by God but was actually a copy-cat form of exaltation taken directly from ancient Roman caesars, especially from  Caesar Domitian (A.D. 81-96)? Rob Bell does. Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross not only for mankind but also for the fish and the trees and the environment? Rob Bell does. Do you believe that the Holy Scriptures are "of man" and not God? Rob Bell does. Do you believe that women should be elders in the church, contrary to 1 Timothy 3? Campolo, McLaren and Bell all do. Do you believe that the sin in the individual's life is less important that the person's self-esteem and mans greatest problem is not sin but boredom? Robert Schuller does. Do you believe that a christian leader should promote the spiritual sciences and new age philosophies? Leonard Sweet does. Do you believe in universal salvation? Brian McLaren does.

Now where do you stand Christopher?

This is why what we believe and teach and practice is vital to our survival as believers, as the church. This is why it is so important that we have clarity on the essential doctrines of our faith. Thanks for your patience. We sincerely do want to help those who are unaware of the dangerous movements going on in the church today. This site is designed to highlight the errors and exalt the Truth so that all would submit themselves to the only Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as revealed in the Holy Scriptures and confirmed through the Holy Spirit. All to the glory of God!

-KCO

5:10 PM  
Blogger Christopher said...

All to the glory of God indeed! We do agree on that.

However, when you look at your perspectives of these people's "new age philosophies" there is a big difference between their perspectives and yours. For example:

"Do you believe a person can be a christian and still practice homosexuality? Tony Campolo and Brian McLaren do."
Yes. Do I think homosexuality is a sin? yes. The point these men are trying to make is that God loves us all. If a person is a homosexual, it doesn't mean they can't be a Christian. Let me make my point clearer: Do you believe a person can be a Christian if when he gets angry, his first instinct is to become violent? I do, as long as he believes it is wrong, asks forgiveness, and in his heart he wants to change for God. I think this parallels your question about homosexuality. It is just a different struggle. Do you understand my point?

"Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross not only for mankind but also for the fish and the trees and the environment? Rob Bell does."
Honestly, I do... But again, I think you are missing the point. Because of the sin of mankind, God's creation is out of sync with the perfect state it once was when God created it.. This perfect state includes the animals and the environment. Do I believe animals love God, and do I believe God loves the animals and his entire creation (not just man)? Of course! There is actually a lot of scripture in the Bible to back this up:
"The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all that he has made. All you have made will praise you, O Lord, your saints will extol you."-Psalm 145:9,10
"The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time."-Romans 8:19-22

I hope that clears those things up a little. I could go on with your points, but I wont to save time and space. Your problem with the emergent church troubles me, because rather than make an effort to try and understand and research what they are saying, you twist their words around to make them sound like horrible blasphemous people, just as the Pharisees did to Jesus.

I wouldn't say I am a part of "The Emergent Church". I am just trying to be as objective as I can be as a Christian.

Honestly, again. I know we may not agree, but I only type these things to you out of love, and not out of disrespect.

3:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Christopher,

I'm glad that you've hung in there this long to discuss these things with us. I appreciate your graciousness. Thanks!

The biggest problem with many of the teachers we have focussed on is that they are unclear and ambiguous in their positions on controversial issues. This leads many people down the road of confusion and false doctrine, many times even affecting their eternal destiny.

Let's turn the table a little: "Do you believe a person can be a christian and still practice fornication? or murder? (an extreme to make a point).

The issue is, does the person 'practice" homosexuality? You referred to the person as "a homosexual". The Bible only speaks of the acts of homosexuality or sodomy of the person. It is never spoken of as an identity. It's what the person does or does not do, not what he is or is not. This is a good example of how said teachers DO NOT bring clarity and draw a distinction. Let's turn the table once more to make the point: "Do you believe a person can be a christian and still practice adultery? Notice, I didn't say, "commit adultery", I said practice, I mean in an ongoing sense. The belief of Campolo and McLaren is that one can continue to practice the sin of homosexuality and still be a christian. I totally disagree with that. Now if they don't really believe that, then they should say so. But they don't and won't. That would be too harsh and too black and white. They have blurred the moral lines drawn in scripture. This is a big problem.

If you accept the premise of Campolo and McLaren, that some people are born as homosexuals, then then you can call them "A Homosexual". But this does NOT line up with scripture. How can God forbid the acts of homosexuality on the one hand and yet that person is born that way? Homosexuality is fornication with the same sex. Yet one cannot practice fornication, which is a rebellious act against God and then say, "I obey and follow God". How can God call something a sin when they're just doing what their natural bodies were inherently wired to do? He can't. Romans chapter one calls homosexuality unnatural, i.e. their affections for the same sex.

When a teacher of scripture does not take difficult and clear stands on Biblical teachings and doctrines, it can often lead to all kinds of unexpected doctrinal errors and heresies. This is why very often (not always) the teachers we are discussing are dangerous in their doctrines, practices and philosophies. Many people are being misled.

One last thing, just because I criticize the teaching does not mean I have called the individual horrible or blasphemous (although the teaching could be) or that I am now to be considered like a pharisee. Write back.

-KCO

1:54 PM  
Blogger Christopher said...

Firstly, I just need to clear up that I am not considering you a Pharisee. What I meant was to step back and take a look at yourself from a wide perspective so you don't become like a modern-day Pharisee. Thats all.

Secondly, I understand your concern completely about the issue, but I still think you are missing the point. When you ask "Do you believe a person can be a christian and still practice homosexuality?" Its not that simple. Homosexuality is a lot more accepted in our society than it has been for a long long time, becuase it is not directly hurting someone else. So naturally, a person would rather go into an accepting society, than a non-accepting church. So if you tell someone who 'practices' homosexuality to choose between Jesus and homosexuality, what are they going to choose? Homosexuality most likely. I believe that through a relationship with Jesus Christ causes change in a person's life. We show our love to God with our own obedience.

Now, you may say that we are bending Jesus to fit the society, but I say to you, Jesus loves these people, and for us to abandon them is out of the spirit of Jesus. What Tony Campolo and Brian McLaren are doing is making sure that what they are doing is lead by the Holy Spirit. You say, "The belief of Campolo and McLaren is that one can continue to practice the sin of homosexuality and still be a christian."

"Dr. Campolo's position on homosexuality is conservative: he believes that the Bible forbids all homosexual activity. However, he does not support attempts to "convert" gays into straights; rather, he advises gay people to pursue celibacy." from gaychristian.net. (side note: To be honest, I hadn't really heard Tony Campolo until I read this blog. I don't agree with his wife on this subject, and I still have to do more research to see where they is coming from to form a strong opinion.)

Mc Laren does not take a stand on this, and in a recent inteview this is what McLaren said about the topic:

"McLAREN: I appreciate the question. Let me say two things: First, I think this issue is badly framed. It’s like walking into a domestic violence argument. There are so many things going. It’s not the right time to resolve the argument.

HOMILETICS: You have to take one person to jail and then deal with the other person.

McLAREN: Exactly. And any policeman who walks in on domestic violence is going to have the husband saying, “I’m right, and she’s wrong” and vice versa. So there are times when it’s best not to take sides. And I’m not saying that other people are wrong to take sides. But maybe everyone is not supposed to take sides on some of these things. And I should say as a sincere Christian, if I felt before God I was supposed to take sides on this, I would gladly do that.

When there are political things going on, political parties can separate votes. I worry very much that abortion and homosexuality have been used by the political parties so the church might not even know that its strings are being pulled by political movements.

Second, because I travel a lot, I’m around a wider range of Christians than most people. And my honest feeling is, that across the board you really see great signs of the Holy Spirit at work. I think some of these issues are the tip of the iceberg and there are deeper issues going on. I would rather focus on the deeper issues. I think these other issues are distractions.

For example, the issue of homosexuality brings up some very profound issues that the Christian faith has to deal with. They have to deal with psychopharmacology — to what degree is the human soul related to the biochemistry going on in the brain? Because when we deal with sexuality, we’re dealing with the relationship between the soul and the body. We’ve got challenges to deal with there that are very, very profound.

What percentage of our people are on Prozac? What does that say, and what does that mean? There’s Viagra out there. What if they get a really good anti-Viagra pill? There’s not too much of a market for that! But would it be the right thing for Christians to do in a sex-crazed culture, to give their 13-year-old boys the anti-Viagra, have them take it until a week before their wedding? We’re right in the middle of these issues of the chemical and genetic dimensions of behavior. Huge moral issues for us to deal with. For us to fight about homosexuality on one level without going down to those deeper issues, it seems to me, it’s badly framed. And the way my mind works, it’s hard to take sides on an issue that you feel just isn’t framed well."

What he is trying to say is that the whole subject is a lot deeper than we think. So it is important for us to look at it from every angle, and be lead by the Spirit before we take the final stand on it. We all know that there is no grey area in God's eyes, but we are all trying to find out if the grey area in our lives today is black or white. That is all.

1:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ephesians 4:32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

3:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Christopher,

Your resounding theme in this conversation has been: "The point these men (Campolo and McLaren) are trying to make is that God loves us all."

However, if you and Campolo and McLaren really loved the people trapped in the sinful lifestyle of homosexuality you would not hesitate to tell them three things:

1. Homosexuality is a sin.
2. They are in danger of God's judgment.
3. God wants them to repent today and be forgiven.

I'm done with this conversation. Thank you for your time. Keep in touch!

KCO

10:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, this is an interesting blog. I have the opinion, however, that there is a lot of misunderstanding.

Let me insert my observations:

One person earlier posted the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith that supposedly those named teachers have wavered on. But then in the following posts, it did not seem to be those basic fundamentals that were being brought up as examples of something the teachers had wavered on.

Now, there was at least one fundamental issue mentioned - apparently one of those teachers claims salvation can be attained by works outside of personal faith in Jesus. But, this was not mentioned again by later posts. It would have been an example worth mentioning, in the point of showing a false teacher.

Next the discussion seemed to focus on homosexuality and if a true believer in Jesus (one who can look to the future realization of eternal life) could also be a practicing homosexual. And then the discussion seemed to have ended.

Now I want to add my input - My name is Troy Hicks and I am a theologian. More importantly I am a true believer and am active in the Christian faith. I have been studying theology and Bible at a local Bible school for 6-7 years now.

I am not an emergent church adherent, nor do I outright reject that approach. I am more old school then new.

I feel the pain for those who try hard to protect the truth. There is such a thing as truth, absolute truth that does not ever change with time. Some are designed by God to defend truth in the Church - and they often are not well received.

I think this blog is meant to preserve Christian truth, and to warn of those who might be messing with that truth. That is an admirable thing to do, and one commanded by the Bible.

In the effort of this, often the fight for truth is waged in the wrong arena. What Christians need to learn is what orthodoxy is, that is the essentials of the faith. I do not have time to develop this, but let me state that I believe the core of orthodoxy is the gospel. If you have the gospel, you are joined with Christ and all believers. There is room to err on the rest, non-core, but not on the gospel.

Probably most of the teachers named in this blog would be solid on the gospel. If they are not, they are not really of us - and that is a reality we all have to keep in mind. There are ALWAYS false teachers among us. And some have the unpopular role of trying to root them out and expose them.

One way you detect false teachers is when they start to mettle with what is normally considered solid truth.

The problem is that it is not always agreed upon what exactly is the solid truths.

And some have the role to probe those areas and re-evaluate what is true and what is not. It is during some of this probing that there is a clash.

Done get me wrong, I am not wishy washy and think all views are valid. I am not buying into modern relativism.

I just want to get this blog focused on what is good - Truth. Real truth will set you free.

now - here is my own current views on some of the questions asked:

Yes, I think it is possible that a true believer can 'practice' homosexuality. I understand the arguements about a sinful life made in 1st John ( I can read Greek). But I also seem to see the Bible authors teach that there are carnal Christians that look exactly like non-believes. We are not able to fully judge who is a believer and who is not. I would be most skeptical about a 'practicing' homosexual. Anyhow, this is not an area of core orthodoxy - in my opinion. It is worthy of serious consideration, but not an area to break Christian unity over - not to divide. I see room for disagreement here.

I dont see how practicing Yoga has anything to do with someone being a false teacher. Again, I go back to the gospel. Is Yoga something to break Christian fellowship over?

I dont think contemplative prayer is an issue worthy of dividing over. I only think we should divide over issues that are the core of Christianity. Like the deity of Christ - which is an essentila part of the gospel - for example. How is contemplative prayer an issue here? I dont practice contemplative prayer, and do not advide it. But still do not see how this is a valid point to divide over.

Can you reject Christ and still go to heaven because of your good deeds? Absolutely not. This is an area of consideration. I would break fellowship over this kind of teaching. However, if someone teaches something that is not true, that does not make all they ever taught untrue. Once John Mac Arthur taught that Jesus became the Son of God at His human birth. Ha ha. Mac Arthur has since come around, but in the meantime it did not negate all the true things he had taught.

Does the great commission have equal status with feeding the poor or other community service? Well, first of all, I know the great commission is something we call it. I know the Greek of that passage. The passage says to make disciples, the rest are ways to do it. It says that in Matthew. But a lot of other passages are teling us to take care of the poor and to visit those in prison (believers that are there for the faith ...) I think there is room to disagree about what God meant to be the forefront of our activities - since the Bible does not say to make the 'great commission' a priority over feeind the poor. Don't get me wrong, I am not validating a 'social-gospel' that is really no gospel at all. just dont see this as an issue ot call someone a false teacher over.

Do I belive that God;s throne room as described in Revelation is a copy of Domitians? No, not really. I suspect that if Rob Bell is accurate in the description of Domitian's games, and the description of the Roman Imperial cult, then it is because of Satanic influence. It would be Satan copying God, and influencing mankind to his evil scheme.

However, I am not sure it is really appropiate to see all the images of what is going on in heaven as intended to be exactly as what is going on there. It is possible that some of it is a portrayal of something undescribable - and God makes an image available for His purposes and the point He wants to make. Like the burning bush to Moses. However, I suspect that there probably is an actual physical time-space place right now that has the presence of God being worshipped by physical creatures that are some material and probably some that are immaterial.
In any event, this seems like a clear area of discussion where there is room to disagree. Not an issue of orhtodoxy, not worth breaking unity over.

Do I think God sent His Son Jesus to die not only for humans, but also for the rest of creation - trees, etc? Yes. I think so. He is redeeming the universe in a sense. The primary purpose, I think, is to redeem the elect people of God. But all of this world fell into sin with the sin of Adam. According to the arguments of Romans 5, it seems reasonable that the second man Jesus would fix some of all that was messed up - and that includes all of creation (at least in the sense of the physical world we know of.)
The work of the atonement by Jesus on the cross is not being marginalized or attacked or mis-taught when someone considers the cosmic 'possible' affect His death will have on the rest of creation as well. This is a common thing ot explore in theology, and by mainline conservative thelogians. I think that even the pastor, John Mac Arthur explores this in the appropiate Bible passages in his study Bible. This is not an area worthy of brekaing unity over.

I dont think women's role in Church polity and during worship serivces is all together worthy of breaking unity over. There are various views on this subject by devout followers of Jesus who take His Word seriously. Not all are right, obviously. But it seems there should be room for grace to one another here. I have studied this subject a great deal, and though I do have a view - I want to point out that this is not some area where the Bible authors seem to make it clear we need to break fellowship over it. I guess a woman believer is Biblically allowed to prophesy during the service so long as their head is covered? That would be a Biblical view. But I think there is some misunderstanding of the author's point and intended purpose for what they wrote. Either way, I disagree that this is an issue worth breaking unity over.

I think sin is the biggest problem any human has. I think sin is the single most misunderstood and definitely the most underestimated power there is. But this is an area of constant growth in understanding, where wisdom comes into play. I dont like some of the psycho-babble taught instead of the truth of Scripture. But I do not see this as an area worthy of breaking Christian fellowship.

Do I think a Christian leader should promote spiritual sciences or new age philosophies? Not really. But I am mindful of the prophets who used some rather un-orthodox methods to try to get across truth. Even New Testament writers used contemporary issues to communicate truths - also they educated about contemporary philosophies sometimes. We need to have a more open mind sometimes, just not so open our minds fall out. There is room to do things in a different way. We are not forced to go to a service and listen to any sermons. And there is not any local church that has it all right. We are living in a reality of being fallen creatures that have been resotred to life and yet remain imperfect still. So there is error along the way.

Some of us need to lighten up, other need to tighten up.

I think the seeker church models have something of value to offer the universal Church. Same with the emergent church. Same with the Roman Catholic church, and eastern orthodox, and the rest of the protestant traditions.

Again, not to try to promote more pointless multiculturalistic ideas or just out right nonsensical relativism. But that I think there is room to discuss exactly what is the core that we should divide over and how do we handle the rest of the stuff we disagree about?

Jesus prays in John 17 for us to be one as He and the Father are one. I think His prayer had some weight and is accomplished. We are one. All who have the gospel are identified with Christ. The real good question, is what is the gospel? I love this question and this is where I have put my theological energy in the last year or so. Though I found this blog because I have been researching out the historical occaison that may have contributed to the point of the book of Revelation - that led me to Rob Bell, and later to this blog. So far, I have found good support for some of Rob Bells claims. I find his Revelation teaching to be worth looking into.

4:35 AM  
Anonymous Andrew Tatum said...

You stay up very late sometimes, don't you?

9:37 PM  

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