Thursday, September 07, 2006

Brian McLaren's Unorthodox Quotes

It's important to get an idea of where leaders like Brian McLaren in the Emergent Church are coming from so you can identify the confusion, ambiguity, and unbiblical perspectives of such leaders. Especially when you think of the fact that so many evangelical pastors and leaders seem to view Brian McLaren as "one of their own".

Take some time to read through these quotes and comments of his and let me know if you agree with my assessment of Brian McLaren as a false teacher and/or prophet....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"What if there are thousands of John Calvins out there.... what if God decided to make a lot of them gay?"
––Brian McLaren, Lecture at Princeton Theological Seminary, Nov. 2005

~~~

Brian McLaren's response when asked about gay marriage:

"You know what, the thing that breaks my heart is that there's no way I can answer it without hurting someone on either side."
––Brian McLaren, Time magazine interview, February 2005

~~~

"I hesitate in answering "the homosexual question" not because I'm a cowardly flip-flopper who wants to tickle ears, but because I am a pastor, and pastors have learned from Jesus that there is more to answering a question than being right or even honest: we must also be . . . pastoral. That means understanding the question beneath the question, the need or fear or hope or assumption that motivates the question."
--Brian McLaren on the Homosexual Question, Out of Ur, Jan. 2006

~~~

"Frankly, many of us don't know what we should think about homosexuality. We've heard all sides but no position has yet won our confidence so that we can say "it seems good to the Holy Spirit and us."
--Brian McLaren on the Homosexual Question, Out of Ur, Jan. 2006

~~~

Brian McLaren's view on how we can “solve” the homosexuality issue within Christianity: No one is allowed to talk about it unless they have enough points:

"10 if you have considered and studied the relevant biblical passages
10 if you have actually read the six passages about homosexuality in the bible
20 if you have read other passages that might affect the way you read those six passages
5 if you have read one or more books that reinforce the position you already hold
25 if you have read one or more books arguing the opposite position
10 if you have spent three hours reading websites showing a variety of views
50 for every friend you have who’s been through an ex-gay ministry
50 for every friend who’s been through an ex-gay ministry that didn’t work
50 for every friend who’s gay and in a long-term committed relationship
50 for every friend who’s gay and not in a committed relationship
50 for every parent you’ve listened to whose child is gay
When you have 3,000 points, you can speak on the issue."
--Brian McLaren, Generous Orthodoxy Conference: The Gay Forum, 2005

~~~

"I don't think we've got the gospel right yet. What does it mean to be 'saved'?.... I don't think the liberals have it right. But I don't think we have it right either. None of us has arrived at orthodoxy."
––Brian McLaren, The Emergent Mystique, Christianity Today, 2004

~~~

"Tony [Campolo] and I might disagree on the details, but I think we are both trying to find an alternative to both traditional Universalism and the narrow, exclusivist understanding of hell [that unless you explicitly accept and follow Jesus, you are excluded from eternal life with God and destined for hell]."
--Brian McLaren’s Inferno 2, Out of Ur, May 2006

~~~

"we should consider the possibility that many, and perhaps even all of Jesus’ hell-fire or end-of-the-universe statements refer not to postmortem judgment but to the very historic consequences of rejecting his kingdom message of reconciliation and peacemaking."
--Brian McLaren’s Inferno 3, Out of Ur, May 2006

~~~

"The language of hell, in my view, like the language of biblical prophecy in general, is not intended to provide literal or detailed fortune-telling or prognostication about the hereafter, nor is it intended to satisfy intellectual curiosity, but rather it is intended to motivate us in the here and now to realize our ultimate accountability to a God of mercy and justice and in that light to rethink everything and to seek first the kingdom and justice of God."
––Brian McLaren, The Last Word and the Word After That, pgs.188-189

~~~

"Isn’t hell such a grave ‘bottom line’ that it devalues all other values? It so emphasizes the importance of life after death that it can unintentionally trivialize life before death. No wonder many people feel that ‘accepting Jesus as a personal Savior’ could make them a worse person — more self-centered and less concerned about justice on earth because of a preoccupation with forgiveness in heaven. Again, although I believe in Jesus as my personal savior, I am not a Christian for that reason. I am a Christian because I believe that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world."
––Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 100

~~~

"The church has been preoccupied with the question, "What happens to your soul after you die?" As if the reason for Jesus coming can be summed up in, "Jesus is trying to help get more souls into heaven, as opposed to hell, after they die." I just think a fair reading of the Gospels blows that out of the water. I don't think that the entire message and life of Jesus can be boiled down to that bottom line."
—Brian McLaren, from the PBS special on the Emerging Church

~~~

"What if Jesus' secret message reveals a secret plan?".... What if he didn't come to start a new religion--but rather came to start a political, social, religious, artistic, economic, intellectual, and spiritual revolution that would give birth to a new world?"
––Brian McLaren, The Secret Message of Jesus, p. 4

~~~

"Ask me if Christianity (my version of it, yours, the Pope's, whoever's) is orthodox, meaning true, and here's my honest answer: a little, but not yet. Assuming by Christianity you mean the Christian understanding of the world and God, Christian opinions on soul, text, and culture I'd have to say that we probably have a couple of things right, but a lot of things wrong, and even more spreads before us unseen and unimagined. But at least our eyes are open! To be a Christian in a generously orthodox way is not to claim to have the truth captured, stuffed, and mounted on the wall."
––Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 293

~~~

"...many Hindus are willing to consider Jesus as a legitimate manifestation of the divine... many Buddhists see Jesus as one of humanity’s most enlightened people.... A shared reappraisal of Jesus’ message could provide a unique space or common ground for urgently needed religious dialogue—and it doesn’t seem an exaggeration to say that the future of our planet may depend on such dialogue. This reappraisal of Jesus’ message may be the only project capable of saving a number of religions."
––Brian McLaren, The Secret Message of Jesus, p. 7

~~~

Brian McLaren says of Alan Jones’ book Reimagining Christianity:

“.... Alan Jones is a pioneer in reimagining a Christian faith that emerges from authentic spirituality. His work stimulates and encourages me deeply.” (Brian McLaren's comments on the back flap of Alan Jones' book Reimagining Christianity where Alan Jones states the following about the Christ's crucifixion: "The Church's fixation on the death of Jesus as the universal saving act must end, and the place of the cross must be reimagined in Christian faith. Why? Because of the cult of suffering and the vindictive God behind it." (p. 132)
"The other thread of just criticism addresses the suggestion implicit in the cross that Jesus' sacrifice was to appease an angry god. Penal substitution [the Cross] was the name of this vile doctrine
." (p. 168)

~~~

Brian McLaren's endorsement of Steve Chalke and Alan Mann's book "The Lost Message of Jesus":

“Steve Chalke's new book [The Lost Message of Jesus] could help save Jesus from Christianity. That's a strange way of putting it, I know. Not that the real Jesus needs saving. But when one contrasts the vital portrait of Jesus painted by Steve with the tense caricature drawn so often by modern Christianity, one can't help but feeling the ‘Jesus’ of modern Christianity is in trouble. The Jesus introduced by Steve in these pages sounds like someone who can truly save us from our trouble
In this book the authors refer to Christ's crucifixion on the cross as "a form of cosmic child abuse." Brian McLaren endorses this book.

~~~

"At first glance, Dorothy is all wrong as a model of leadership. She is the wrong gender (female) and the wrong age (young). Rather than being a person with all the answers, who knows what's up and where to go and what's what, she is herself lost, a seeker, often bewildered, and vulnerable. These characteristics would disqualify her from modern leadership. But they serve as her best credentials for postmodern leadership."
--Brian McLaren, Dorothy on Leadership. Rev. Magazine, Nov/Dec 2000

~~~

“Scripture is something God had ‘let be,’ and so it is at once God’s creation and the creation of the dozens of people and communities and cultures who produced it.”
––Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 162

~~~

"Perhaps our ‘inward-turned, individual-salvation-oriented, un-adapted Christianity’ is a colossal and tragic misunderstanding, and perhaps we need to listen again for the true song of salvation, which is ‘good news to all creation.’ So perhaps it’s best to suspend what, if anything, you ‘know’ about what it means to call Jesus ‘Savior’ and to give the matter of salvation some fresh attention. Let’s start simply. In the Bible, save means ‘rescue’ or ‘heal’. It emphatically does not mean ‘save from hell’ or ‘give eternal life after death,’ as many preachers seem to imply in sermon after sermon. Rather its meaning varies from passage to passage, but in general, in any context, save means ‘get out of trouble.’ The trouble could be sickness, war, political intrigue, oppression, poverty, imprisonment, or any kind of danger or evil."
––Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 93

~~~

"How do you know if something is true?...First, you engage in spiritual practices like prayer, Bible reading, forgiveness, and service. Then you see what happens; you remain open to experience. Finally, you report your experience to others in the field of spirituality for their discernment, to see if they confirm your findings or not."
––Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 199

~~~

“The church latched on to that old doctrine of original sin like a dog to a stick, and before you knew it, the whole gospel got twisted around it. Instead of being God’s big message of saving love for the whole world, the gospel became a little bit of secret information on how to solve the pesky legal problem of original sin.”
--Brian McLaren, The Last Word and the Word After That, p.134

~~~

“The Christian faith, I am proposing, should become (in the name of Jesus Christ) a welcome friend to other religions of the world, not a threat”
--Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy McLaren, p.254

~~~

“This is how I feel when I’m offered a choice between the roads of exclusivism (only confessing Christians go to heaven), universalism (everyone goes to heaven), and inclusivism (Christians go to heaven, plus at least some others). Each road takes you somewhere, to a place with some advantages and disadvantages, but none of them is the road of my missional calling: blessed in this life to be a blessing to everyone on earth.”
--Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy McLaren, p. 113

~~~

“Western Christianity has (for the last few centuries anyway) said relatively little about mindfulness and meditative practices, about which Zen Buddhism has said much. To talk about different things is not to contradict one another; it is, rather, to have much to offer one another, on occasion at least.”
---Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 225
~~~

"I must add, though, that I don't believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu, or Jewish contexts."
---Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 260

~~~

"I felt that every tree, every blade of grass, and every pool of water become especially eloquent with God’s grandeur. Somehow they seemed to become transparent—or perhaps translucent is the better word—because each thing in its particularity was still utterly visible and unspeakably important . . . These specific, concrete things became translucent in the sense that a powerful, indescribable, invisible light seemed to shine through. . . . It was the exuberant joy of simply seeing these masterpieces of God’s creation…and knowing myself to be among them. It was to be one of them, and to feel and know that “we”—all of these creatures, molecules, and phenomena—were together known and loved by God, who embraced us all into the ultimate “We.”"
---Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 178

~~~

"I am a Christian because I believe that, in all these ways, Jesus is saving the world. By “world” I mean planet Earth and all life on it, because left to ourselves, un-judged, un-forgiven, and un-taught, we will certainly destroy this planet and its residents. And by “the world” I specifically mean human history, because again, it was and is in danger, grave danger, ultimate danger, self-imposed danger, and I don’t believe anyone else can rescue it.”
---Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 97

~~~

I will probably need to do a part 2 since Brian McLaren has a lot on his mind and feels he needs to express it to so many.

One of the things I was wondering about when researching through these comments of McLaren's is--doesn't a true christian cherish and appreciate God even more because of such doctrines as the sovereignty of God, his holiness and his unfathomable richness of his truth (Romans 11: 33-34)? Don't those doctrines, and many others cause his children to humble themselves more and trust his Word to a greater degree like the writer of Psalm 119 did? Why does McLaren decide to change the meaning of scripture simply because it doesn't fit into his educated brilliant intellectual perspective? Why does Brian McLaren think he has to adjust his theology to fit his life experience? Shouldn't our life experience be perceived through the light of His holy Word rather than his Word being interpreted through an individual's personal viewpoint?

-KTO

66 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Question: As human beings, Do we have innate struggles? In other words, are we born with a propensity to sin in one area? For example, someone is born with the propensity to be addicted to alcohol, or struggle with lust.

What is your view on this?

10:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What is wrong with being Christian and remaining in a Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist context?

10:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Would it not break your heart to hurt someone?

10:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The comment on "understanding the question beneath the question" - What is wrong with that comment, in your opinion?

10:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This man is the poster child for pop-cult heresy. In essence, he offers nothing:

* If what he says IS true, it makes no difference. You have no assurances of truth and no boundaries in what you believe, so anything goes.

* If what he says is NOT true, it makes even less of a difference. He cannot tell you what the consequences are, if any, of rejecting his propositions. Anything still goes.

As Paul said, the purpose of this type of heretic is get a following ("draw disciples after them"), and he is soft and persuasive, but quite empty. He's not hollow, he is empty. What a waste.

10:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do you think that Christianity should threaten other religions of this world?

11:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Exclusivism, Universalism, Inclusivism... which are you?

11:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do you discourage the belief that only Jesus can save the world and everthing in it?

11:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Muslims (True Muslims) of this world are among the most zealous of all peoples of fatih on the earth. Christians are among the least (in the sense that fewer of them embody the faith they claim in everyday life. As opposed to the percentage of Muslims that are the embodiment of their faith in everyday life).

In your opinion, could Christians stand to learn a lesson about zeal from Muslims?

11:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How do YOU know if something is true?

11:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In light of the historic Christian faith it is amazing how God can shake to arguement of heretics to the core just by letting them continue to speak. Brian has waxed eloquent about.... nothing! The quotes you selected only managed to solidify my disinterest in someone who can only ask questions and pose as a deep thinker. Yes, there are things about God we can ask and never know about. If I could understand everything about my God, He would be no God at all.

The real issue always comes back to "Who is Jesus?" If you claim Him as personal lord and savior, there is no problem in fully believing what He said in the canon of scripture is the truth. If He is an 'enlightened one' or saviour of the 'whole earth' (guys & gals, birds and grass, etc), then it makes sense that there is a loss of personal touch between you and God. Hence the need to continually search for experience that validates your incorrect belief about this god.

Keep up the good work Kenny. I don't get around to your blogg often but appreciate it every time. Keep hammering at the flimsy struts of post-modern christianity. The old stuff was still good because it comes from the One who pre-dates time.

2:50 PM  
Blogger Kennyo said...

"it is amazing how God can shake to arguement of heretics to the core just by letting them continue to speak"

You are right, thanks for your comments. I figure sometimes by just posting quotes from people like McLaren, Campolo, you pick, it can be more effective than trying to debate or reason with.

3:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Man, they come out of the woodwork when you expose their boy .
I think " Anonymous" could be the same person , it is funny to read all the defenders of the emergents , they never come back with the scriptures just attacks on the one who pulls back the rock they hide under.
Kenny this great to show everyone what these people believe, what one says is what one believes. What one does not say can be what one believes also.
Keep under-covering the posers.
Mike Oliver

9:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you for sharing these quotes. Brian is a brilliant man, and we are lucky he's brave enough to share his thoughts in an open forum.

12:19 AM  
Blogger Neil said...

Thanks for posting these! This will be a great page to bookmark and reference.

Yes, sometimes these arguments are so foolish that shining a light on them is good as refuting them line by line (though both can be productive!).

8:55 AM  
Anonymous Joseph David James said...

Dear Mike Oliver -

Nice try in trying to make me out to be the culprit.

Truth #1> I do not even like Brian McLaren. I own one of his books and never purchased another one because it wasn't relevant for me.

Truth #2> Brian McLaren isn't my "boy".

Truth #3> I am NOT emergent. I am reformed.

Truth #4> My purpose in posting all the questions here wasn't to "defend" Brian McLaren. He is responsible for defending himself.

Truth #5> My purpose was to show how unloving and mean spirited this place is. You made a presupposition about me, simply because of some words on a computer screen. You don't even know me. I had a friend tell me about this place. Him and about 5 others were telling me that there is a group of "guys" on "Thinker-up" that think they are the only ones going to heaven and that God's grace is limited. Do you want people to think that of you. After reviewing a little more carefully than they I am sure they are wrong. But this is the impression you're leaving.

Truth #6> I am hurt that I have been PRE-judged.

Truth #7> I am sorry and I repent for any engagement in argument. Brother's in Christ are to love one another.

Truth #8> This site isn't good for my heart right now, so I am done here.

Truth #9> God loves you, he loves me, he loves Brian McLaren, and I love all of you. Without condition.

11:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If this site exists to expose the errors of the emergents, it has succeeded -- many times over. I don't know anyone here or what the personal or private disagreements may be among them. But one thing is for sure. McLaren is heretical, by any biblical defition of the term. God loves him, yes; but God -- and Jesus in particular -- has more than a few choice words for false teachers and those pastors who lead sheep astray. We should not hide behind evangelical political correctness and refuse to point out gross error. Neither should we be contentious while we contend; let the people take issue with the message and not with the way the messenger brings it.

And whoever believes that brothers and sisters in Christ are not to argue has not read the NT very well. We are not to be argumentative in our approach, but there was plenty of argument in Galatians 1 and 2, and throughout the book of Acts, particularly between Barnabas and Paul, and at the Jerusalem council. There are those times in which no matter how gently you try to persuade those who "oppose themselves" as Paul called them, they will not submit to sound doctrine and will turn around and attack you. Par for the course.

Point people to the Scriptures, not to men or leaders; let the people take issue with the Word. We thank God that He has given teaching pastors to the church, but they are not the ultimate authority, they can go astray. And when they do, let's remember that Jesus made his own cord to chase illicit business out of the temple.

God bless you all.

1:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Joseph David James, WOW! You seem a bit sensitive...the comment referred to "all the defenders of the emergents" not just whoever "anonymous" might be. I am always surprised how many people take all the comments so personal without realizing this blog is trying to stand for the truth of Jesus Christ, His Words, not discuss all his possible feelings or our own. Some of the anonymous quotes are almost like word games. Are we to be in awe of the "True Muslims" who will blow themselves up, or respect the Muslims who do not denounce such actions? And" should christianity threaten the other world religions of the world"...what is that even supposed to mean? "Is jesus the only one who can save the world and everything in it"...are we talking about saving the trees and the earth? And "can you you be a Christian and remain in a Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist context? The answers are in the bible and it might hurt some people's feelings but it is the truth-I did not write it, I did not make it up, or even think it up...It is clearly written in God's book and it is NOT man made......for the man made stuff you might want to look into the muslim or buddhist or even McClarren or Campolo. You see, then you can pick and choose what you want to believe and leave out whatever might make you a bit uncomfortable...because it is all about us isn't it. I am thankful that God is in charge and not man. One last comment.......the people behiond thinkerup do not seem to me to to "think they are the only ones going to heaven" quite the contrary....1) they KNOW that they are going to heaven ....and 2) they have a heart and desire to stand up for the truth and hate that there is such a distortion of God's Word by so many who call themselves Christians and it is infecting so many churches everywhere. Paul spoke many many times warning against false teachers and we see it so clearly in so many of the emergent/purpose driven/mega churches.

8:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey last Anonymous,

That's a good word! (Wish I knew who you were.)

Thanks for the encouragement and defense of the Truth!

-KCO

10:13 AM  
Anonymous Ryan said...

Dear Kenny,

Thanks for compiling a publishing this great collection of quotes!

I'm afraid your plan has backfired, though. Instead of miring McLaren's name, you have actually intrigued me, and I am currently searching for more literature and speeches by him and his fellow emergents.

What struck me was this: Throughout these quotes, McLaren's overall tone is one of honesty, humility, and an open, searching heart. I might not have noticed this tone had it not been thrown into such high contrast by your surrounding blog, which exists, it seems, to mire the name of anyone who doesn't cling to the same exact views as you. And you're doing a pretty scrappy job at it, too. Posting such beautiful passages as "What if Jesus' secret message reveals a secret plan?".... What if he didn't come to start a new religion--but rather came to start a political, social, religious, artistic, economic, intellectual, and spiritual revolution that would give birth to a new world?"

Of course McLaren's views are unorthodox! As growing Christians in a growing world which God is in the process of saving, almost everything we do should be unorthodox! Jesus Christ Himself, whose "truth" you are so valiantly defending, was unorthodox in the highest degree, to a point where the religious leaders themselves were chanting for His crucifixion. Christ did not come to start a religion. He came to save the world, which includes homosexuals, emergents, fundamentalists, garbage men, insane people, you, me, Jim Henson, Charles Manson, Jim Lasseter, all the people who die every day, all the people who live one day longer than them and then die, all the pastors, all the porn stars, all the animals, all the plants and oceans and sunsets and elk, all the thoughts we've ever thought, all the words we've ever said, all the songs we've ever sung - behold! He has made all things new! I am not being sarcastic here. I am saying that God is saving the world and He is moving in huge ways outside of, and even in spite of, the modern Christian church.

Much of Christ's rants were against clinging to religious dogma. McLaren is saying the same thing.

His words, the words you have been so kind to compile, have rekindled within my heart a passion for the Kingdom of Heaven to come about on earth.

Your words, however, have shown me that, indeed, some seed falls on rocky soil.

His way is to explore, love, and celebrate. Your way is to argue.

Be careful how you reply, or you might just prove me right.

All in love,

Ryan Hover
Fort Collins, CO

p.s. I do not mean to speak for McLaren. I'm a terrible representative of his eloquence and humility. But I just had to post something to say that only the most closed-minded, fearful person would list any of the above quotes as wrong or bad or hateful.

You're doing a bold, public thing here on this blog, and people are going to call you out when you border on bigotry.

I have to go smoke a giant cigar now...

5:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is such a shame Ryan Hover that you, like so many have been deceived into believing the lies of Brian McLaren and ultimately Satan. It is clear that this site has not influenced you or "back fired" as you so put it. You have believed what you have long before this site ever "influenced" you and "sparked the flame with in you." Instead of reading McLaren, you need to pick up a Bible and see what God REALLY has to say about His coming Kingdom. The coming Kingdom which we have absolutely no part in ushering in. This earth will not be saved by us or by Jesus, if you think we are destroying the earth just wait til you see what Jesus is going to do to it.
As posted before, the Word of God is CLEAR, and anytime it is attacked by individuals such as McLaren and apparently yourself, God's people must step up with the truth to defend it. McLaren's humility is useless if he is wrong. Ryan, you have erred greatly against the living God and His Word is very clear, You will be judged. You must repent and turn to the God of Scripture, not the god of Brian McLaren. Make Him your Lord and Master, believe and follow Him. I pray you will come to a real knowledge and understanding of the truth.

11:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is such a shame Ryan Hover that you, like so many have been deceived into believing the lies of Brian McLaren and ultimately Satan. It is clear that this site has not influenced you or "back fired" as you so put it. You have believed what you have long before this site ever "influenced" you and "sparked the flame with in you." Instead of reading McLaren, you need to pick up a Bible and see what God REALLY has to say about His coming Kingdom. The coming Kingdom which we have absolutely no part in ushering in. This earth will not be saved by us or by Jesus, if you think we are destroying the earth just wait til you see what Jesus is going to do to it.
As posted before, the Word of God is CLEAR, and anytime it is attacked by individuals such as McLaren and apparently yourself, God's people must step up with the truth to defend it. McLaren's humility is useless if he is wrong. Ryan, you have erred greatly against the living God and His Word is very clear, You will be judged. You must repent and turn to the God of Scripture, not the god of Brian McLaren. Make Him your Lord and Master, believe and follow Him. I pray you will come to a real knowledge and understanding of the truth.

11:38 AM  
Anonymous paul wellard said...

you americans are ruining Christianity yet again-you gave us swaggart,warren,dollar,engle,osteen,jakes,joels army,mars hill,brownsville,toronto-well near enough,and so we could go on-the best thing you imported to the world was stryper..at least they used to throw out bibles to the audience to read the truth for themselves-as for truth,probably best to read the bible pray,teach preach and live for Him,reasonably simple my kids understand the gospel message from reading bible verses.How many more complicated confused messages are you gonna give the world...
great debate...despite what i said we do love visiting the u.s. to see friends and family
the ace face

5:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

false prophet through and through

10:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The homosexuality stuff does not relate to religion strictly defined. It shouldn't be listed here, there is a legitimate debate in the Body about this issue and it does not suggest Christological or other important error. Now having said that, the man is a heretic.

5:26 PM  
Anonymous David said...

While I do not agree with everything Brian McLaren says, he is a human and prone to mistakes like the rest of us, I do like a lot of what he says. (I know having stated that, you think I am lost and in the need of repentance. Well I serve a gracious and merciful God who forgives.)
Perhaps Brian starts his theology in a different place then you. I am assuming because you come from the reformed tradition ("Truth #3> I am NOT emergent. I am reformed."), your starting point for your view of God is he is all-powerful, correct?
In my view of God, [and I'm assuming Brian's] we like to focus on God as all-loving. (1 John 4:8)
When you start there and build from the Greates Comandment, (Mark 12:30-31) It is clear that the relationship between ourselves and God, and the relationship between ourselves and eachother are the most important things in the world. [Or why would they be the Greatest Comandments?]
What Brian is doing is trying to look at the Bible through that lense. The lense where he is seeing a Jesus who would issue a command to love as the greatest.
I know some people think that you can't read the Bible through a lense. That it distorts the truth in the the Bible. Well the truth is everyone has a lense they look through when they go to the Bible. No one can approach the Bible with out there own ideas, presuppositions, history, experiences, etc. waying on there mind when the read God's word. If we could then why are there so many different ways of thinking in the Christian Church today? Why was there the Great Schism, or the Reformation, or any other divide that has happened in the Church based on differing Theology? It is because we all have different experiences, thoughts, and traditions. They all change the way we approach Scripture.
For instance, When I approach scripture I look at how God showed grace in the passage I am reading for the day. I am assuming that when you approach scripture you look to see what powerful act God did to prove his sovereignty.
So, when Brian McLaren is asked about homosexuality, he doesn't answer the question because he wants to preserve that relationship with people, thus keeping the second part of the Greatest commandment. He is keeping the relationship open so that he can discuss the issue with people one on one, instead of making a blanket statment and have to live with the fact that he can no longer talk to homosexuals about God. Because he burned the relationship with them. And when Brian says that we don't have christianity figured out, it is because we don't. If we did then we could all unite under one banner again and show God's love to the world.

I hope I haven't offended you with this. I just wanted to tell you that theologies are different that doesn't mean they are wrong.

In Love.

David
Susanville, CA

2:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wish I would have stumbled upon this sooner but I just have some comments...

"they never come back with the scriptures just attacks on the one who pulls back the rock they hide under."

Why would a person of the emergent movement need to "come back" with the scriptures as if it's necessary for one believer to fight another with scripture, for God's sake (literally.)

Also, the comment about McLaren never answering but always questioning (so this means that he doesn't take a personal stance?) An earmark of an effective spiritual leader is to get people to question and to think about things; not simply to speak at them and tell them the truth as they see it and create an environment where people are expected to believe something just because some Pastor said so.

I don't know, I have read quite a few blogs about this so called "heresy" and all that it does is cause me to lose more hope that Xians will ever stop looking to hurt one another and to prove that one believer is above another in their beliefs and interpretations of scripture. I don't think Jesus could be happy that we have turned his teaching into grounds for continual competitive and hurtful arguing.

If Jesus himself said the most important two things were to Love God and Love People, where has McLaren gone wrong?

2:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

McLaren has some very intriguing questions and if you ever took the time to read his books you would find some very interesting answers as well.


Many of your comments are nothing more than lousy attempts to shut others down for questioning the world in which we live.

Currently the actions of the present day church have established little to no change in how we should or could improve our surroundings.


Instead of sitting back and waiting for your salvation to come to you why not step up and meet salvation here?

2:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for putting these quotes up.
As you know, the beauty and the error of pulling quotes out of context is.... that they can often lose their context.

Having read his books, I know the context, and resonate deeply with his views. I would suggest the trilogy to those who are skeptical of his positions, and his questions. It walks thru theological arguments in a story form.
It may not cause any to agree, but I promise-- it will help you rethink some traditions that could use a fresh look.

11:24 AM  
Anonymous Corey B. said...

Why do the blogs on this site choose to pull so many quotes out of context or quotes with nothing wrong with them as their "proof" of false teaching. Do yourselves a favor and read the mans' books.

4:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have to agree with all of those who would make up their mind on Mclaren without reading his work.
After all who cares about truth when we have the 'gospel' and what can he tell us that we haven't already proved to be herecy in our own closed off simple little minds.
This blog as an absolute beacon, keep it up.

9:34 AM  
Blogger Kennyo said...

Anonymous,

As the author of this blog, and of this post, I have read much of McLaren's work and you really are not very good at sarcasm. Also, just to let you know, you misspelled 'herecy'... it's heresy.

10:20 AM  
Blogger Kennyo said...

Anonymous,

As the author of this blog, and of this post, I have read much of McLaren's work and you really are not very good at sarcasm. Also, just to let you know, you misspelled 'herecy'... it's heresy.

10:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I come from quite a conservative background, yet I find most of these quotes very refreshing! Brian's asking some good questions, and challenging certain thoughts that need to be challenged.

What I find sad is that instead of taking his points seriously, and asking yourself WHY Brian would say these things, you just brush him off as a liberal heretic.

I don't mean to attack you, but seriously brother, why not engage in a more reasonable way than just write him off completely?

Do you not see that Brian is looking for real answers to real questions?

PS- I'm not the same Anonymous who's posted the other comments

12:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A wise man told us that much study is weary of the flesh. So are the vieuwpoints of Brian. Yes, there is much of "truth" to it...but to me, the "spirit" behind this kind of thinking it is a haughty intellectual mind..because in the end,... what you really are suggesting... is that the whole christian world has not found the full orthodox context of truth yet...but you do? You must be a really big guy!

3:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for being incredibly ignorant and out of context.

8:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is truly sad to see professing followers of Christ so agile and defensive. McLaren's ideas on secret messages is true to a point. Christ spoke in parables consistently, but saying i am the way, TRUTH, and life cuts it clean. Their is mystery in the text, as to what the heck God is talking about, but there is solid truth we can rely on. It is all about Christ. There is truth in this world. About the contreversial topic of homosexuality, people seem to shove their thoughts out way to much. I believe it is wrong because the law Christ came to FULFILL portrays it this way. The truly disheartening thing though, is how judgmental people are on these people. I have no doubt in my mind Christ would have told the man caught in homosexuality to "go and sin no more" the same way he freed the woman caught in adultury. Christ came to forgive, heal, bring creation back into shalom with its maker, and to re-develop a personal,real, day in day out relationship with us. He came to defeat the entaglement of sin in our lives, whether it be homosexuality, or pornography, or lying, or greed, or hate, or divorce...he came to destroy emptyness, and to "give us life to the fullest" i wish followers of Christ would stop judging, and start praying. Empty coldhearted lives are everywhere, and McLaren has it right in loving those who many would not. We need to love those who are empty, and thank God for grace. Sin is bad because God said it is, but God also forbids sin BECAUSE its bad. Sin holds on, clings, destroys, tempts, and leaves empty and broken. We need to stop judging, and start praying and showing healing. "repent then, and turn to God, so your sins may be wiped out..." Repentence from sin is neccesary, but Gods love and fulfillment comes after "and turn to God...so times of refreshing may come from the Lord".

in love

8:19 PM  
Blogger Anthony Venn-Brown said...

what a wise man.....thanks for these quotes.......I particularly liked

Brian McLaren's view on how we can “solve” the homosexuality issue within Christianity: No one is allowed to talk about it unless they have enough points:

9:16 AM  
Blogger Sean said...

what a refreshing voice Brian is! Thanks for posting these quotes. Very helpful.

9:37 PM  
Blogger Billwade said...

Although, I am not a fan of 'out-of-context' quotes. I think that providing a large number of quotes helps with discernment. What a blessing to have a voice like his at this time.

8:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

McLaren has become what several in
the emergent church have become:

heretics who preach an
anti-christ message and deny
the true gospel of Christ.

Who become enemies of the cross and
work against every genuine believer

The church needs to be warned about
their subtle misteachings that lead
to full blown heresy when followed.

10:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to whomever said they think Jesus would have told the homosexual to go and sin no more, there is actually a case where God dealt with living in sin homosexuals.

Look up Sodom and Gomorrah

Burnt to the ground.

I'm not saying we should hate them, only the sin should be hated. And we shouldn't be going out of our way to ostracize them and not other sins, but to say its ok to God to be a living in sin homosexual is a slap in the face and not supported in scripture.

Same as a drunkard or thief or adulterer, anyone living in these sins is not fit for ministry, and eventually if not willing to try to change will and should be excommunicated.

If we didn't do this, we wouldn't BE loving them, as we wouldn't care enough to do anything.

2:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

just read the word... the clear points are there, sure theres some mystery speckled everywhere, but for the most part we dont have to go out of our way to re-think things we already confirmed long before now... there is absolute truth, saying otherwise is absolute in itself... ive read 2 mclarin books with a warm feeling that followed but if you just read the word then its plain to see that some of the stuff is rather off... lets just read what God gave us and stop relying on mans word... jesus made his point, lets just go with the son of gods word, not mine or anyone elses...

6:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the Author of this blog,

Wow...my heart is hurting after reading this blog and comments. Seriously...resorting to chastising (making fun of) posters for mispelling words?! How petty and judgemental.

I don't personally know Mclaren...I've only read 3 of his books. I have my opinions about them, but suffice to say that I will continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling before a gracious Abba Father. It's interesting that the times Jesus PUBLICLY cried out against something...it was to expose the hypocrisy of the self-righteous church.

If the contributors/followers of this blog (and myself) could even catch a GLIMPSE of the grace and furious love that God has for mankind...this blog and many others like it would shut down, and we would all busy ourselves with actually LOVING others.

Instead, we're all parading around in filthy rags, pretending to be smarter/wiser/holier than those who dare be honest in their questions and pursuit of God.

You seem like an intelligent man (not sarcasm) so I'm sure you'll have a smart retort or maybe you can make me look inferior by pointing out spelling mistakes. Either way, I've wasted enough time on this site and I'm sure my comments won't really change a thing.

May God's Love richly bless you,
Rick

8:50 PM  
Anonymous David said...

Thank you, Rick. You have stated my feelings exactly.

David
Susanville, CA

10:30 PM  
Anonymous NC Christian said...

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

The Apostle John 4:1-3

The question is, will Brian McLaren listen to me? If not, he has the spirit of falsehood. See John 4:6

5:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, Jesus did not come to save animals or the earth. The earth will one day be destroyed. He came to save mankind. Man, however, must believe that Jesus died and rose again, to be saved. Were it not for grace, this would be impossible. Some people will go to Heaven. Some people will go to Hell. The Scriptures also speak of election and predestination, but I won't get into that.

2:42 PM  
Blogger Ron said...

From reading the list of comments it is clear that fans or followers of Mc Laren will make all the comments they can to make those who speak against Mc Laren as unloving and judgmental as possible. However it is also very clear that Mc Laren is not a Christian and clearly deceiving followers into believing some undefined concept of Christianity thereby assisting in their damnation. This man with a smile and words of love for all is a curse on the earth and a curse to all that follow him. The most loving thing I can say now is this man should be rejected as a curse and blight on Christianity. Outside of Christ there is no salvation, until man comes to faith in Christ he is an enemy of God’s. To teach otherwise is to place you squarely outside the word of God and outside the body of Christ. So you who wish to argue will only get us to preach the Gospel to you that you may be saved, for you are in peril of eternal damnation and you need to turn to God who forgives sins through Jesus’ substitutionary death that atones for our sins. There is no salvation outside of Christ. You cannot say I am a Christian and then deny that salvation is only available through Christ. Call yourselves whatever you want but you’re not Christians. I will call you an unbeliever that needs to discover the beauty and preciousness of Christ by seeing the ugliness of your sins and the need for salvation and then and only then will you cling to Christ and him crucified.

8:05 AM  
Anonymous NC Christian said...

Well said Ron. I agree with you 100%.

6:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People do or don't believe in God because we make them decide.

9:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Kenny, I just wanted to give you two thumbs down for being a chump.

9:39 PM  
Blogger bryantsamperi said...

Who among you that love your children do not warn, admonish, teach, and chastise those children you confess to LOVE when need be? If you do not, surely your love is vain. Is the Father a wreckless, irresponsible, and cold-hearted fool that He does not do what any loving human parent would do and warn his children of dangers, admonish us to follow his directions, teach us what is acceptable to him, and what is not, and give us a good spanking (chastisement) when need be? Surely, He is not a God of love if He does not?

This is the God too many are promoting today - a Father who gives no moral instruction, who allows his children to walk in blindness, at the mercy of fate saying, "Maybe they will just happen to figure it all out on their own". While they preach love they willingly reject the instruction of LOVE - God the Father - the one who has revealed his will and given instruction to his children that they may have life. Why? Because He LOVES!

And what brother or sister who professes to love his siblings willing refuses to communicate knowledge of the father's will to the younger ones. The problem is that too many really don't believe. They think the Father a liar and imagine the Son in the image of a stoned hippie walking about just preaching peace and love without judgment. Sorry, that is another Christ - a pipe dream deception. That is not LOVE!

If you love you will speak the truth, not RETHINK or RE-IMAGINE the gospel and with flattery deceive those for whom Christ died.

8:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your blog keeps getting better and better! Your older articles are not as good as newer ones you have a lot more creativity and originality now keep it up!

8:40 AM  
Blogger Clay said...

How can the church hold up this guy as someone to follow?

Simply amazing. Let the Word of God be the foundation, and judge everything this guy (and everyone) says according to the Bible. The Bible is timeless.
The word 'postmodern,' etc... Mr. McLaren likes to use is so pointless. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He transcends culture, age, race, etc...
Homosexuality was a sin in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah, it's a sin today, and will always be a sin in the eyes of God. Why is this such a 'hard' thing for Mr. McLaren to grasp, or admit? Isn't it the duty of a Christian (watchman on the wall) to warn sinners of their ways? Too many Christians think to 'love' simply means to keep a nice tone of voice and smile at the world.

Tell me, who loves and who hates?
Is it the man who let's the car drive over the washed out bridge and fall to certain death?
Or is it the man who stands in the pouring rain, waving his hands to STOP!!!!

Mr. McLaren needs to get saved.

11:49 PM  
Blogger johnny m said...

i think it's great that you've created a section on your blog to judge brian mclaren, especially since that's what the great commission is all about. wait...what?

if you disagree with mclaren's ideas, fine. it's clearly not a pre-requisite to calling yourself a Christian and mclaren himself would likely be the first to say that. however, the way the north american church has treated it's neighbors in the past has damaged it's relationship with those neighbors and (possibly but hopefully not) the relationship those neighbors could have with Christ.

this doesn't mean you have to subscribe to mclaren's views or anyone else's. all it means is that it was time the western Church started changing how it treated "outsiders". if you disagree then i'm sorry to say that you make ministry more difficult for the rest of us.

9:44 AM  
OpenID thefirstmorning said...

We live in a world that is at the edge of economic collapse, environmental disaster, and nuclear holocaust. Could it be that the Christian message, as it has been interpreted since its usurpation by Constantine in 312, has been less effective than it might otherwise be.

Hallelujah for McClaren and others who are able to see beyond the doctrines born of Church/State unity and listen with new ears to the words of Jesus. Maybe Jesus really did have something to say when he said things like "turn the other cheek" and did not merely spit those words out to sound holy..

10:35 AM  
Blogger dave w said...

all the judgementalness is ridiculous. mclaren raises alot of good questions. who out there has themselves or their church exactly in line with Christs' teachings. nobodies got it all figured out and the way we've been doing church in this country for quite some time obviously isn't having much impact on society.judging people, being pious, righteous and just plain obnoxious is keeping folks away from church or running them away. so many of these quotes are taken out of context it's not even funny. let's look at some new ways of conveying the message because it has gotten stale and people aren't even listening anymore. that doesn't mean to change it but we can change our perspective and methods of delivery. how bout this statement from "A New Kind of Christianity", We acknowledge that we have created many Christianities up to this point, and they call for reassessment and, in many cases, repentance. If you don't agree with this you're in denial. Look around at the landscape of church life in the U.S. and these realities are all around us.

1:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In today’s world, tolerance is king. And there’s no greater tolerance issue than homosexuality. Activists have changed the way mainstream society--politics, business, education, the media--thinks about homosexuality. They’ve also changed the way many churches and denominations think about it.

Where do you draw the line? More to the point, where does the Bible draw the line? In Homosexuality and the Bible, John MacArthur challenges popular views about how Christians should interact with homosexuals--and what God thinks of homosexuality.

Filter your questions about homosexuality through the grid of God’s Word. Definitive answers await.

Its free, just click listen.
http://www.gty.org/search/homosexuality

6:46 PM  
Anonymous Dave said...

Experiencing God through Deceitful Mysticism (Emerging church) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50geMDUvZnM

6:06 AM  
Blogger Beijing Barista said...

"Unloving.. judgmental..prideful" Just like Paul who warned the Church against false teachers consistently, even weeping because the danger was so great against the ONE true gospel, and he even named people in his letters calling them false teachers. Christ also warned above false teachers and prophets. So did the early Church fathers. So have all men of God throughout history.

When post-conservative "evangelicals" like Brian McLaren and the like claim the true Church who think they have the truth are soooo prideful.. I just wonder at how they are the pride that must feel after a 2000 year history of a unified message clearly documented and witnessed by God's Spirit in real revival and awakenings to say... "None of us have the gospel, but we're the first one's humble enough to admit it."

This movement that promotes a false gospel and worldview stinks of false humility which is in fact pride. And this is my act of love towards those deceived by these people to read the Bible as it is, the unchangeable, eternal Word of God, of which there is no private/personal interpretation (1 Peter 1:20-21)

God meant for His words to be interpreted in one specific way, He repeats Himself multiple times throughout the Bible so you can't miss it. This 'movement' tries to obfuscate the methodology and epistemology of the matter, realizing God's Word is clear, it must be "deconstructed" to remove the initial meaning, so they are not responsible to God's Word. Unfortunately, their heresy (which is a sin of the flesh, Galatians 5) does not abdicate them of their responsibility.

The Word should be sufficient, when read and believed as it stands, to refute this, but you can jump into scholarly Christian circles and see what happens when a gang of facts attack a lonesome theory with no firm philosophical support.

2:02 AM  
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2:29 AM  
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8:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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12:29 PM  
Anonymous TE Hunt said...

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS! THIS HAS ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE "EMERGENT CHURCH"--IT IS IN FACT, "EMERGENT HERESY". Actually, it would be better to call it "resurgent heresy". Just age old unbelief that tried to dress up in religious garb. 21st century Sadducee. I'd have some respect for Mr. McLaren if he would just come out and say he doesn't like what the Bible says and doesn't believe it.

5:03 AM  
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4:11 PM  
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9:06 AM  

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