Friday, September 21, 2007

A Revival of Tribalism?

Alright, what's the "real" issue with body piercings? Is this an issue of so-called "christian liberties"? When do the christian liberties stop and a disconnection from worldliness start?

I just hope somebody who is really really smart and very spiritual would tell me just how far a person should or could go with this body piercing thing. Somebody tell me where to draw the line. This is one "christian liberty" which I do not understand.

How is body piercing neutral?

When I see a christian involved in youth ministry pierced all up and down his ear with a variety of different types of studs, rods, and shafts through portions of his body I have to ask the question no one else seems willing to ask... "why are you doing this, and what kind of statement are you trying to make by piercing yourself all over? Just what kind of cultural or social statement are you making?"

If I ask such questions am I being "judgmental"? Is there ever an occasion to ask or do we just keep quiet and not say anything ever to anybody because the greatest sin anyone can make is to sound too legalistic.

What if a kid happens to like the look and design of a swastika? Let's say he doesn't believe anything the Hitler stood for he just likes the graphic design work. Isn't it his right to wear this symbol? Well... actually, people would be outraged, and rightly so. This symbol has meaning and it carries a strong statement in society.

What kind of meaning and statement do body piercing carry? Do a search on google "piercings", the image section, and see what comes up. Let me know what kinds of social statements speak to you when you see the search results!


Come on, please... somebody bring this up and deal with it! As we keep quiet, young people keep pushing the envelope and gradually little by little the bar gets lowered until there is no ability to say anything, we've been intimidated by accusations of judgementalism and silenced to making any stance for fear of repercussions of making waves. And all the while our kids are on rushing toward Sodom like a buy one get two free sale at Hollister.

Let's be honest, there was a time when NO PIERCINGS would be tolerated amongst christian youths, much less from elders or youth ministers and youth workers. Now it is acceptable, as long as it is limited only to the ear(s). And maybe a small one in the side of the nose. However if it is in the brow, it might be an issue. Small studs are OK, but a two inch shaft through the upper part of the ear is not OK... wait...that kind may be OK now too, sorry...my bad.

Where are these rules of where to stop? What is guiding how many, what kind, and on what parts of the bodies piercings are allowed? Also is it "OK" for some christians but not for others? Maybe if you're from the ages of 18-30 it's OK but older or younger than that would not be appropriate?

I wonder what a guy like Charles Spurgeon or Jonathan Edwards would have to say about christians with body piercings.

I could go on and on but HERE is an interesting article dealing with this issue.

Below is a quote from the article:

"In some of the most unexpected places we are confronted by a revival of the old tribal practices of body scarification, body piercing and body mutilationNose rings, eyebrow rings, belly rings, tongue studs, multiple earrings, nipple rings, tattoos and other disfigurements are more than an identifiable sub-culture – it is all part of an aggressive fashion statement which is challenging the Christian Church."Do not cut your bodies … or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord. " Leviticus 19:28

Unfortunately, most Church leaders have remained silent on this practice, even while some youth leaders and Bible College students are giving themselves over to body modification."



MY QUESTION IS "WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE AND WHY ARE THESE PEOPLE DOING IT?"

49 Comments:

Blogger Patrick said...

I wonder if the person who wrote that column also advocates people not wearing poly-fabric blends or shaving their sideburns since the same chapter in Leviticus advises against those things as well?

I also found this sentence interesting: "If something is prevalent and accepted in the world, that alone should be a compelling argument against Christians adopting their fashions and fads. We are called to be different."

Really? Suits, ties, jewlery, and beards are all much more prevalent and accepted in the world than tatoos or piercings. Does that make for a compelling argument against sporting such items?

I also thought it was a bit strange to invoke the tribal meanings behind piercings and tatoos as a reason why westerners shouldn't have them - as if the meanings somehow carry from culture to culture. If we're gonna start thinking that way then there's some currently accepted activities we're gonna need to rethink. For instance several hymns found in modern hymnals are based on old drinking songs. If origins transcend intent then we might want to consider getting rid of some old songs.

I'm not here to defend or denounce piercings and tatoos. They're a non-issue to me and most arguments I've seen for or against them are generally less than compelling - and usually come down to whether or not the arguer likes that kind of thing personally or not.

I went to a Bible college where we weren't allowed to wear jeans to chapel. I used to get real upset about that. At the time I took it as an affront to my personal freedom. I could rail on for hours about how offensive I found the whole thing, while all around me people were hurting, dying in their sins, and mistreating each other. It was pretty disgusting of me, frankly, to get so worked up about something so superficial when there were real problems around me that could have used my attention.

People who debate endlessly for or against the superficial things while easily ignoring things like hunger, racism, abuse, and hurting people strike me as missing the point pretty badly.

And far too often, I'm one of those people.

I accept a lot of people's mileage may vary.

11:32 PM  
Blogger Kennyo said...

Patrick,

Where do you think a christian should draw the line on this issue?

I was hoping for some feedback.

Personally I think it is a sign of rebellion and vanity. I don't think men should do it. It is immature.

12:23 AM  
Anonymous Brenda said...

To Kennyo,
Greetings in Jesus!

What comes to mind is the 1Corinthians ch 8 concept of not eating meat sacrificed to idols....

Paul discusses that we know there is only one God, whose we are, however, there is a demonic entity identified with the idol, and likewise there is a demonic trait, REBELLION, and a host of other things, associated with body piercings, and those that do it, KNOW it, or it wouldn't be attractive.

Some people want to avoid the truth, and are not looking for how they can please God, but how they can get away with as much self-rule as possible....this is not the attitude of a bond servant of Jesus Christ.....Paul emphasized here, as well as in Romans 14, we ought not to do things that can cause someone else to be interested in sin......

The servant of Jesus Christ does not want to draw attention to himself or herself.

The whole error flourishes in the environment of the error that we must "engage our culture" in order for Christ to be relevant.....

What a lie.

Thanks for your site Kennyo.

May the LORD Bless you as you obey Him, who is good, and whose mercy endures FOREVER!

10:02 AM  
Blogger Hank said...

Well said Brenda.

11:07 AM  
Blogger Patrick said...

Sorry, Kenny. If you're looking for clear instructions, I don't have any for you.

I will say, however, that when it comes to determining someone's motives as to why the get pierced or tattooed, you're probably better off listening to people involved in the activity than people who aren't.

12:14 AM  
Blogger Hank said...

Patrick,
How do you see this in relation to the Scripture Brenda quoted?

11:59 AM  
Blogger Lin said...

"For instance several hymns found in modern hymnals are based on old drinking songs."

That is a myth. You may want to do more research on that one.

A question on the tatoos and piercings: I am wondering if our tatooed (is that how you spell that?) and pierced younger brothers and sisters in Christ, will be proudly wearing them at say, 50? 60? 80?

Funny, I see many 30+ spending lots of money trying to get rid of the tatoos they cherished just a few years before. Especially the women.

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways."

3:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It seems that the church has bought into the lie of our culture which says a person's rights and freedoms are to be protected and defended above everything else, even above obedience to God and submission to each other.

I thought we are told in Philipians 2: 3-4 to:

3.Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

4.Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.


This should cause a christian to care more about misleading the covenant christian children in the church than his "right" to wear his bizarre piercings.

If he really cared about them more than his own vanity he would take them out just in case he may be sending a statement of rebellion and worldliness to kids.

Body piercing IS the statement of rebellion among the youth of today.

11:38 PM  
Blogger Patrick said...

Hank, I think Brenda's scripture is valuable in cases where someone is wearing piercings as a sign of rebellion. I don't think, however, that is the only reason why someone might get pierced.

As to the issue of piercings causing a brother to stumble, we've already discussed that particular scripture the last time this topic came up. I can't imagine I'll shed any new light on my feelings this time around that I didn't last time.

12:29 AM  
Blogger Patrick said...

"That is a myth. You may want to do more research on that one."

Crap. I gotta stop believing everything I read. At any rate, I think the idea origin doesn't transcend intent is still a valid one. Just plug in a metaphor that works for you.

12:43 AM  
Blogger Phil Perkins said...

Kenny,
Good topic. I'll take a stab at it. First of all, it defaces the temple God has given us. One mark of sin is the intentional destruction of the good things God has done or made. A vandalism of sorts. Second, it is not in our best health interests for a number of reasons. Third, it seems obvious to me that those doing it are trying to fit in with a pretty sinful bunch in our culture.

Trying to alter our appearance to become fearsome or grotesque is counter to the God of beauty and truth. We are to be a gentle people and we are to model godliness. I think this sort of thing is much like God telling men to dress like men and women to dress like women. Do not tell God He did it wrong.

Will a saint imitate the satanic?

In Christ,
Phil Perkins.

3:41 PM  
Blogger Hank said...

Patrick,
I remember a young man who came to church with spiked green hair. I considered him a friend so I asked why he was trying to draw attention to himself. He answer was, "I'm not trying to draw attention to myself." I said then, " Do you see any other person in this vicinity that has an appearance anything near to yours and he said, (rather sheepishly) it was more a statement about what is considered normal. I couldn't help myself so I said, I suspect it is normal when a fool acts foolishly. Our actions speak quite loudly and although I can envision a possible scenario in which a person would do piercing to honor the Lord I would have to say it would likely be an unusual situation.

4:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you are immature and silly and wanting to be like the world not Christ when you pierce and tattoo your body . You still love the world somewhere deep inside . You like that old lover and you don't want to let go of her yet, you still like to sleep with her .

11:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's amazing how many professing christians seem to become more like the world in their appearance after they are saved. They have little or no concern that their freedoms might affect younger believers in a way that would cause the weaker (the youth) to violate their own conscience (going against their parents' rules). This is in violation to scripture (1 Cor. 1:9). That person's freedoms/rights, in hands of a young person, will often be used as a weapon of rebellion against the parents. And just think, it came in throught the church doors.

The new idol for many of today's church goers is the god of my RIGHT, my FREEDOM. I have the RIGHT to choose, I have the FREEDOM to do! This is IDOLATRY.
-KCO

10:05 AM  
Blogger Hank said...

Here is an unusual situation. Two Moravian youth desired to evangelize a Caribbean Island slave population. The slave owner refused and missionary presence within his domain. These young men in order to evangelize this people group sold themselves as slaves and used the money they had obtained to booked passage to that place where they spent their remaining years in slavery evangelizing and discipling the people they believed God had called them to. I Corinthians 7:21 says "Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. 22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called." I don't think this verse should be used to judge the error of those two young men. Perhaps if they are making a statement to the church one would question their wisdom. Is there a parallel here?

11:25 AM  
Anonymous dpazos said...

Keith and Hank:
I agree 100% with KCO, very wise words. I think it good that Kenneth posted Keith's comments above to become today's article. I was hanging with a professor friend at Starbucks today who is publishing his books on Acts and Luke. He has visited this Website, and says he will visit again, perhaps even comment like this.
He was also interested in Ken Silva's Website, which I gave him the URL for Apprisng Ministries.
I consider the actions of the Moravian missionaries honorable, although their situation was not usual in any sense. Stop trying to appease liberals like Patrick and take a stand for what you believe, even if the liberals do not like it. Better to be insensitive or viewed as weird, than to kiss up to liberals or beating around the bush on certain issues. When you try to be viewed as nice or reasonable by all, you often fail to take a stand. That's my humble advice.

1:46 PM  
Blogger Hank said...

Interesting choice of descriptions Dan. I do not think that truth is defined as conservative or liberal but God's word and although an individual has leanings to the left, I will not dismiss his words without scriptural examination. Nor disrespect him based on political persuasion.

3:25 PM  
Anonymous dpazos said...

Dear Hank and others:
I concede the presence of ad hominem arguments above in this thread, specifically by 'Anonymous' against Patrick.
Disrespect and ad hominem arguments I suppose, would be in the same category here. That is clearly wrong. Some people know it to be wrong, because they choose to leave their comments as 'Anonymous'. You can only confront them if they self-identify on Thinkerup.
However, my choice of descriptions accurately describes the 'Culture War' occurring in the United States between liberal and conservative elements, affecting everything from religion to child-rearing to interpreting the Constitution. So then, those who describe the contemporary conflict in such terms are not so crazy. True Christianity, and for that matter, true Judaism, is ipso facto, conservative Christianity and conservative Judaism. Hard (if even possible) trying to argue that the liberal version for both religions are the 'real thing'. Interesting how liberal-type heresies have inflicted damage on both the religion of the New Testament, and that of the Old Testament. I am not another Don Quijote fighting windmills. The battle lines are quite obvious here and now. Having said that, your distaste for ad hominem arguments by our 'Anonymous' colleagues makes sense.

4:16 PM  
Blogger Patrick said...

Dpazos, you didn't answer before when I asked what made me a liberal. Was it the taking offense at your insinuation that non-whites and women don't pay their taxes or my dislike of your use of the word "homos" to describe homosexuals?

And I can't think of a single instance where I've been offended by someone taking a stand on these boards. I've disagreed with opinions, but I can't imagine anyone having a problem with that. The only things I've expressed genuine dislike for is your attitude towards non-whites, your use of the word "homos," and some of Ken Silva's statements about Rob Bell that delved into the personal.

6:08 PM  
Anonymous dpazos said...

Patrick:
I sometimes offend more liberal brethren. I suspect you are a Christian, although a liberal Christian. I agree with Ken Silva on everything, he is a solid conservative Christian, exposing the liberal lies. My views on race are moderate, and the race stuff was intended for humor. Those on this Website who know me interpreted it as such. My views on homos are obvious. I will use vocabulary that makes my conservative bias obvious to all. Those who get offended by such are proven to be liberal. So then, you fail the litmus test, and are official granted LIBERAL heretical status on Thinkerup. Congrats!
May the force of Jane Fonda be with you!

5:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Danny,
In my most humble/arrogant/objective opinion, that was funny (to say the least).
I hope Patrick can not take things so seriously and indulge in a little, healthy, harmless laughter at himself.
Patrick, you gotta admit, that was a good comeback.

-Keith
P.S. All kidding aside Patrick, we do appreciate your input.

5:43 PM  
Anonymous dpazos said...

Keith and Patrick:
Given your names, I will be sure to insult the Irish next time. I am native to Cuba myself. Some persons get too intense. Jesus will soon come back to reign for a Millenium. That will resolve every social issue I am sure! Patrick, feel free to comment as Keith said.

6:10 PM  
Blogger Hank said...

Dan is the final word in eschatology.

6:56 PM  
Anonymous dpazos said...

Thank you Hank!
It was refreshing to read a SHORT comment by Hank. Apparently some of us have a sense of humor. You have been long-winded in the past.

4:17 PM  
Blogger Hank said...

Thanks Pal

5:20 PM  
Blogger Raul said...

It's a simple response.

Piercings are like sneezes.
1 or 2; you say “God Bless you”
3 or more; you ask “Is everything OK?”

6:49 PM  
Blogger Patrick said...

I appreciate the welcoming attitudes and the occasional moment of intelligent debate that has come out of this place, but I think ultimately our senses of humor will prove incompatible. A place that gets up in arms about piercings but thinks racist humor is funny is ultimately a place where I'm gonna find myself frustrated more than encouraged. I'll still poke my head in every once in a while, but I think for the most part I'm better off letting you guys talk amongst yourselves. Good luck and God bless you all. The internet, as always, does a poor job relaying tone, so don't read any of this as snitty or upset. I'm not leaving in a huff. I just think there are places better suited for my point of view.

6:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Patrick,
Homosexuality is not a race. If you are are referring to it that way.
Mike O.

10:18 PM  
Blogger Patrick said...

I'm well aware of that Mike. The racist humor I was commenting on, and have commented on multiple times at this point, was the bit a while back from Dpazos where he implied that non-whites don't pay their taxes. The fact that no one other than me called him out on that (and frankly, who cares if it's a joke. Since when are jokes like that considered Godly?), but were quick to step in and point out how getting a piercing or a tattoo is a sign of rebellion and demonic influence struck me as very odd. That's what I'm referring to and what has ultimately convinced me I'm better off limiting my input here.

8:23 AM  
Anonymous dpazos said...

Kenny and others:
Interesting funeral for our friend the World War II veteran. I found it very respectable as well as interesting.
Patrick apparently does not like our conservative sense of humor. Yes, many yellow, red, black, and brown people work hard, pay taxes, raise children, and support churches. Many government officials in Third World nations are NOT corrupt. Maybe Britney Spears is really a Baptist. Some White Americans are homeless bums who beg on street corners. However, general assertions are valid, and in some cases, frankly, the exception proves the rule.

4:01 PM  
Blogger Patrick said...

You seem pretty intent on making my objections about politics, but I know plenty of conservatives who don't make jokes out of sweeping generalizations about character based on race.

I keep saying I'm backing out of this and then I keep feeling the need to make one final point. I'm out for real this time. I think.

9:36 PM  
Blogger Hank said...

Patrick
I pray you are never out of the body of Christ.

11:09 PM  
Blogger Patrick said...

Hank, this place has me so paranoid that I'm left wondering if that was meant as a blessing or an admonition. Based on my past interaction with you specifically I'll assume it's a blessing and just say, "Thank you and likewise." I appreciate your attempts at keeping these occasionally heated debates Christ centered.

8:21 AM  
Blogger Kennyo said...

Patrick,

Thanks for all of your numerous comments. Your contribution to the comment section of thinkerup has kept the conversation lively for some time. I know Hank and he is very sincere, what you see is what you get. Also, don't get discouraged with this hearty dialogue. This is one way in which people get everything out on the table and we see where each other's positions are. I think it is a good thing to do as long as others are descent, respectful and humble.

Sometimes comments are more blunt than other times but don't let it drive you away from the conversation (I hate using that word, "conversation" it sounds so emergent)

-Kenny

9:25 AM  
Blogger Patrick said...

Kenny, thanks for the kind words. I'm not leaving totally. I'll still pop up from time to time - I'm just limiting my input.

And it's not the "blunt" nature of the conversation that's driving me away. I can handle debate and even a little name calling. I'm limiting my time here because I'm perceiving a blind spot that I know is going to result in me growing more and more frustrated with conversation as time goes by.

Thanks again!

1:51 PM  
Anonymous dpazos said...

Fellow comrades:
Do not get upset about the conservative bent of our Website.
Shake off the frustration, real men are not so sensitive. Maybe some of you would feel more comfortable visiting a liberal Christian Website instead. More encouraging, less convicting. However, I think all Christians, some toward the left, or others the right, either way, can benefit from this valuable discussion. So shake off that girly sensitivity, be manly, and join the wrestling match!

4:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My $0.05 worth on this topic: Aside from getting a little unsightly, body piercings are an open invitation to plain old infection. I'd stay away just for hygienic reasons alone.


JC
Texas

10:38 PM  
Blogger Hank said...

Patrick,
My response to you is found in I Corinthians 13:4-8 Paul says, "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away." This morning my son asked me why I go with my wife once a week to meet with a believing couple for breakfast. I told him it was about accountability. "What is accountability," He asked, "is it like counting on some one?" I was astounded at the thought process that brought him to that question and was sent into a thought process of my own as I plumbed his question. A definition for account' is ...'a record of money received or spent.' We can I believe change the word money to gifts and talents, Ephesian 2: 10 says, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Matthew 12:36 & 37 says, "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." I am convinced that I will be accounted the righteousness of the Word, Christ. But I also take Paul's words very seriously when he said in Philippians 2:12-15 says"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world," I am convinced by Scripture that all believers have a measure of Christ by His Holy Spirit, and I count on them (all other believers) to hold me accountable to be faithful to the Word. I believe I also am part of the process through which God calls His people to faithful righteousness. None of us is faultless and none of us stands alone. We who believe are part of a body. It is the Word of God, "...living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, and there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.", by which we MUST measure the truth. Ken who can be bombastic at times and Dan who can follow suite well are not perfect and neither are you or I. (I know you agree.) I believe we need each other in all our weakness,(..Dan a man is not measured by his strength, but by his character,) and that, in our weakness Christ can and does reveal His perfect strength. The newest blog Ken is showing is an exert from a sermon by Paul Washer. I would love to hear your comments on it and pray you will resist the temptation to give up on your conservative brethren.

10:49 AM  
Blogger Patrick said...

Dpazos, brother, my frustration doesn't come from the conservative bent of this website. I have many conservative views, I know and spend time with plenty of conservatives, and I often find myself learning a lot from conservative teachers.

Conservatism isn't the problem.

The problem is when folks turn a blind eye to what I see as pretty vile behavior that has nothing to do with politics.

I don't find racist humor funny and I don't understand anyone who wants to honor God using it. I also don't understand how someone can admit that using a word like "homo" is "unwise" but continue to do so because it makes their "conservative bias obvious to all."

That's not a conservative problem. It's a rebellion problem. I don't think "rights" and "freedom" are the only new idols as KennyO suggests. For you, it seems that Conservatism is an idol since you admit that you're more interested in everyone knowing you're a conservative than abstaining from behavior your admit is unwise.

The fact that some folks who frequent this website will bend over backwards to see rebellion outside of their circle, but blow right past it when it's right next to them makes me think frequent interactions here will ultimately frustrate me more than serve any good purpose.

I hope I adequately explained that and that you can stop feeling persecuted because of your conservatism. Your political stance isn't the problem. It's the fact that you hold your political stance in higher regard than wisdom or your fellow man. I can't see anything Godly about that behavior. Or turning a blind eye to it.

11:03 AM  
Anonymous Lynn H. said...

It's been awhile since I've lighted in here, but here I am tonight. It's been an interesting yet somewhat perplexing read through the comments here...

In the end, I found Patrick's patient and carefully stated expression of his observations and concerns to be commendable, and refreshing. I have read this thread tonight with great interest and a bit of curiosity for the variety of expressions I have encountered herein.

I believe that Patrick has done a commendable job of communicating convincingly his points of conflict with Dan (Danny?) in particular. His responses mirrored my own observations as I read along.

We can surprise ourselves sometimes with the contradictions that exist undetected within ourselves. Patrick has made some astute and helpful observations, and hung in there through some serious challenges. There ARE contradictory remarks to be found within some of the comments here. Not surprising. We are all complex individuals, processing the things we encounter in life, and attempting to integrate the truth of the scripture into our lives. It is a fact that we are all imperfect in our understanding and perceptions, both of others and of ourselves sometimes. It's good to bear with and listen to those who may have a disagreement with us, because often they afford us an observation of ourselves we may have missed.

I don't necessarily find myself in agreement with Patrick in some of his earlier comments, but I respect the way he has hung in there with everyone, and the tone he has kept throughout his time here. It was very refreshing to see such a thing. His last comment in particular included some valid and very respectfully stated observations. They were my observations as well. Hopefully they will be taken to heart, as I think they were sincerely offered, being both constructive and instructive. Frankly, I was really impressed with the way they were expressed.

Thanks, Patrick, for hanging in there and for being so gracious. As Kenny O. says, I hope you'll continue to drop in here and join in the give and take. Everyone here has the opportunity to offer something to each other in terms of perspective. A good give and take can require some patience, but in the end produce something like this, a valuable point of view perhaps missed by others. We all have blind spots; that is a fact not to be disputed. And I include myself in that as well. If we'll be patient and keep a respectful stance with one another, it can be to all our benefit. We're all works in progress, aren't we?, and can derive something of benefit even from those with whom we disagree strongly. We just don't always see what we need to see, and that's just why we need to value each other's input.

Blessings to everyone here,
your sister in Christ,
Lynn

3:30 AM  
Blogger Patrick said...

Thanks for the kind words, Lynn.

1:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The question should be --
Am I in line with the Bible?
Who cares what anyone's view is, no one's thoughts and comments matter except for God's TRUTH.
Stand on Truth only. You and all of us are selfish and lovers of our own voices.
God's Word only.

11:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I Peter 1:19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. II Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. I wonder if we limit ourselves by thinking our weakness is greater than God's grace or that God can't change our sinful nature to something more. Please look up Ezekiel 36: 22-27, Isaiah 1:18 and I Peter 2 and 3. I sense the Liberal says his sin is not so bad and the Conservative says God's grace is not so good or maybe not so strong. How sad and destructive is the unrepentant sinner who claims faith in Christ and perhaps equally wrong the sinner who hinders the Spirit's work because he fails to see the image of God in the human God has created in His own image. I John 2:9. I know Paul lamented his imperfections (Romans 7:7-25). Perhaps that was the evidence the Spirit was in Him but I rue those who take pride in themselves yet say glory to God (Luke 11:18). I pray I and my brethren (male and female) in Christ will begin to claim the same inheritance Paul knew was his own. Perhaps then Christ will be seen through His Church and the world will know He truly does live. Romans 2: 20-29.

7:09 AM  
Blogger Kennyo said...

Anonymous,

You used a lot of scripture. Thanks! However your 1 Peter reference is actually from 2 Peter.

I am not so sure that pointing out these issues in a post equates "saying I am in the light but hating my brother" (1 John 2:9).

Also, it might not be accurate to use Romans 2: 20-29 in this particular issue either. But thanks for pointing to scripture anyway. It is always right to look to the Word of God for our perspective on things.

7:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Those passages were not intended to say you were but rather to, as Paul said in I Corinthians 11:31-32 exhort all the responders to this particular issue to judge themselves before they make judgment of others. Judgment is a Christian duty and I would not say don't do it. Paul speaks in I Corinthians several times about judging and not to deny it but to understand it. Jesus in Matthew 7 said one could only see clearly to judge others after an honest evaluation of themselves. (My interpretation). I appreciate and encourage you in your work even though at times I may have some reservations.

8:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Romans 2:20-29 is about those who profess faith in Christ and the effect they have on the unbeliever. I am inclined to think all or most of the responders to your blog are professing faith. That is the reason I included that verse.

8:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

bypassing the fact that i have not read the comments on this article, i felt like adding my 2 pesos.

In 787AD, tattooing was banned for the next 1000 years by Pope Adrian I and the roman general council. Christians had been tattoo themselves with crosses and fish to show their devotion. It was banned from wales to china.

in the old testament you put a ring in a womans nose and thus she was engaged. go figure...

body modification such as tattoos and piercings are not new and likely not much of a threat to relevant culture aside from the fact that people are going to regret them later in many cases. i personally have 2 tattoos and had 1 piercing in my labret. i took the piercing out because of social reasons (i am a business owner) and will be covering one of my tattoos (it says yahweh or yhwh in hebrew) because i was an ignorant 21 year old when i got it and some things just shouldn't be body decorations. i came to this conclusion after a conversation with a very polite, yet informative, Jewish woman.

at least piercings can be taken out with little more than minor scarring...gauging or expanding is obviously a bit more damaging.

11:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think there is a few things that are wrong with receiving Tattoos & Piercing, after one accepts to follow Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior...

First off when we decide to follow Jesus we no longer own our bodies… We now belong to God… Not Ours But…. HIS. As it states in…

1 Corinthians 6:19
19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

We also know that God never changes and His Word is Truth, and we know that there is more then a few places in the Bible that states that tattoos & Piercing are not good. And even though we are free from the Law… Jesus himself states this about the Law….

Matthew 5:17-20
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:21
21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

So I do not believe that even though we are free from the Law that it gives us the right to do as we will with the Temple of God.

Secondly Tattooing & Piercing is a form of demonic desecration. I know that seems harsh but know that what we do before we come to Christ is just that Before and therefore… Forgiven as it states in…

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

But after we come to Christ we belong to Him as stated above. So our body is a gift from God that we should Treasure. And when we do ANYTHING that destroys the body… it is a form of demonic desecration.

In Love.

1:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think there is a few things that are wrong with receiving Tattoos & Piercing, after one accepts to follow Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior...

First off when we decide to follow Jesus we no longer own our bodies… We now belong to God… Not Ours But…. HIS. As it states in…

1 Corinthians 6:19
19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

We also know that God never changes and His Word is Truth, and we know that there is more then a few places in the Bible that states that tattoos & Piercing are not good. And even though we are free from the Law… Jesus himself states this about the Law….

Matthew 5:17-20
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:21
21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

So I do not believe that even though we are free from the Law that it gives us the right to do as we will with the Temple of God.

Secondly Tattooing & Piercing is a form of demonic desecration. I know that seems harsh but know that what we do before we come to Christ is just that Before and therefore… Forgiven as it states in…

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

But after we come to Christ we belong to Him as stated above. So our body is a gift from God that we should Treasure. And when we do ANYTHING that destroys the body… it is a form of demonic desecration.

In Love.

1:34 PM  

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